Posted by: Pixiedyke | June 21, 2006

While It’s Nice To Be Wanted,

[This post edited 6/28: I've decided to take down some of the less substantiated things in this post. I am working on a longform essay about The Legacy Center which will have verifiable information in it. Until then, the factnet postings and the letter I sent to Hat are out. Rest assured, this does not mean I caved. I am trying to walk a line between honoring my personal experience versus that of my friend.]

No posts for a few days, sorry about that. I had alot going on. See, a few weeks ago, I went out to a party with Doh, BU, and Hat. I happened to mention in passing the bike trip I was half-assedly, pipe-dreamedly planning. While I would like to do this bike trip, or maybe read about someone else doing this bike trip, I have a very specific set of steps that must first take place: 1)winning the lottery, 2)paying off my credit cards, 3)writing a best selling novel, and 4)buying a house. The bike trip is a long way off.

Anyway, as soon as she heard about the trip, Hat was on it. “There’s some classes I’ve taken that could really help you with that.” She explained a bit about them, and I felt like I blew her off, as mildly and politely as possible. The next Sunday, Hat called me and said she wanted to talk more about the class. I didn’t have anything else to do, so I said she could come over.

She did, and I got a 2 hour grilling about the bike trip, work, my family, all this stuff, some of which I didn’t really feel comfortable talking with her about, since it was THE THIRD TIME WE’D SEEN EACH OTHER IN OUR ENTIRE LIVES. Then she said the class could make my dreams come true. I thought that was a little silly. I asked her about the school’s philosophy, and she didn’t know. I asked her about the founders; she didn’t know. I asked her what branches of psychiatry it was based on, nothing. She could not even tell me what credentials the trainers had.

Well, now, I can tell you. In the beginning, there was EST, which stood for Erhard Seminars Training. EST was the beginning of a movement called Large Group Awareness Training. These businesses, in order to sell their product, focus on creating breakthroughs for their customers, whether they actually happen or not. According to Michael D. Langone, Ph.D. Editor, Cultic Studies Journal, :

I know of no research, however, that convincingly demonstrates positive behavioral effects of these trainings. In my opinion, one of the best studies from a methodological standpoint was “Research on Erhard Seminar Training in a Correctional Institution” (Hosford, Ray, E., Moss, C. Scott, Cavior, Helene, & Kerish, Burton. Catalog of Selected Documents in Psychology, 1982, Manuscript #2419, American Psychological Association). Of 313 inmates who volunteered for est training in a Federal Correctional Institution, 150 were randomly selected for the training, while the balance acted as a waiting-list control group and were given scholarships to be used upon release. The groups did not differ on demographics or variables related to criminal history. They were given a full battery of psychological tests and biofeedback instruments, with half of the group pre-tested and half post-tested (to control for the possible contaminating effect of testing). Three-month and 12-month follow-ups were conducted to assess behavioral outcomes (incident reports, furloughs, work performance, etc.). Although the psychological tests reflected some positive change, these self-report changes did not manifest themselves in alterations in physiological measures or in actual behavior.

The research and anecdotal evidence seem to indicate that LGATs are very successful at producing positive opinions about the trainings — an outcome that the financial officers of every service business would value. However, whether or not they have a substantial positive effect on behavior that is not due to placebo factors, is still an unanswered question.

Legacy’s founders, Rob Katz and Lori Todd, graduated from a group in DC called Lifespring. Lifespring’s founder, John Hanley, had one previous run-in with the law. I feel that this story is completely relevant:

In 1969 John Hanley, a 23-year-old college student, was fined $1,000 by the U.S. District Court in Des Moines, Iowa, and placed on five years probation. The social-science major had been selling franchises for toilet-cleaning routes that didn’t exist.

Doh took the class, he loved it. BU took the class, she loved it. Didn’t I want to make things happen in my life? I balked about the money; she told me that if I was serious about myself, if I valued myself, I would find the money. I told her I wanted to talk to Doh about it; she said he loved every minute of it and what it had given him. I asked her what Legacy had done for her; she said something vague about her family. I told her I wasn’t about to just hand over $400 on her say-so. “Don’t you trust me?” she asked. I didn’t, but I didn’t want ot tell her that. What if she thought I was an awful person? I caved and signed up. Thinking back on that decision, I kick myself everytime. I guess I was a little excited, if only because everyone else seemed to be so excited. I felt disoriented, like I was on the wrong end of a baseball bat. I have a tendency to tell people what they want to hear, but I’m working on that.

Over the next 9 days, she called me every second day to tell me how great it was going to be. The school called me to interview me. BU and Doh were excited. I was weirded out because everyone was so unironically enthusiastic. I didn’t tell any of my other friends about it because I felt ashamed that I had given in. I knew something was wrong, but I didn’t listen to the voice that was screaming at me. I didn’t listen to the Pixiedyke. Finally, I decided to listen to my gut and cancelled the class.

When I talked to Greg at the center, I told him that I felt Hat had been overly pushy, aggressive, and weird, and that I had talked to other friends, all of whom agreed that I didn’t need this sort of personal awareness seminar at this time. “I’m sure you don’t” Greg replied. “When you say Hat was acting weird, weird like how? Did it seem like she needed to see a doctor?” I replied that I wasn’t actually qualified to make that determination, and I’d like my money back, please. He agreed rather more easily than I was expecting.

I told people at the wedding about it. Not only had several people heard of The Legacy Center, they all warned me in no uncertain terms to stay away. It’s not so much a religious cult as a money cult. They turn these people into unpaid shills to draw in their friends, who in turn draw in more friends, and they walk away with 60,000 per week and no employee payroll. Because they are very careful to say that no therapy is involved, they bear no responsibility for any future emotional problems that evolve from having intensely personal revelations in front of a group of complete strangers without a trained professional present.

When I came home from the wedding, there were four messages on my phone, between Doh, BU, and Hat. I called Doh and BU, working out some kind of temporary truce until we could get together and understand each other again. BU encouraged me to call Hat, assuring me that it wouldn’t hurt her feelings to tell Hat that I felt pushed around and manipulated by her. I still didn’t feel ready to do that, so I didn’t.

Monday night, around 6:30, I was sitting at my computer, reading blogs as usual, when I heard a knock. “Oh shit,” I thought, “It’s Hat.” I looked out the window, and I was right. I laid down on the floor to consider my options. She called my phone and I didn’t answer. I laid on the floor while I listened to her go next door and ask my neighbor if I was at home. AN replied that, while my car was indeed in the parking lot, she had no idea whether I was currently inside my apartment. I listened to Hat walk up the stairs and knock on my other neighbors’ doors. Then, she came back down and sat in front of my door with her laptop out, apparently prepared to wait until I came home. I called Kirstie and left a message. Clarkton has since yelled at me for not calling her and her judo chop, but I feel that would have escalated the situation a bit too much.

After 45 minutes of huddling on my floor, I realized I was being ridiculous. I can continue to say ‘no’ until Hell freezes over. That is my only answer. So I got up and pretended I had just walked back from Earthfare. She heard me and knocked again. I let her in. “You didn’t think it would be that easy to get rid of me, did you?” I started, pictured her catching me peeking through the curtains, then said, “What?”

“Not returning my calls.”

“Oh, I just didn’t feel ready to talk to you yet, so I didn’t call you.”

I told her it was ok if we talked, and for the next 45 minutes, she tried everything she could think of to get me to change my mind. She accused me of not being open with her. She wondered why I had been so excited before. “Is this a pattern for you?” she asked. Well, I’ve never been asked to join a cult before, but I can guarantee I won’t hand over my credit card number again, so no, no patterns here. Finally, I got rid of her by promising to have dinner with her on Tuesday.

All day long on Tuesday, I wrote down everything that occurred to me to say to Hat. The letter was about half a page, and laid out all the feelings I had bottled up over the course of this experience. I left it on her truck, then went to a safe space with friends. She called me when she got the note. She was crying a little at the beginning, but by the end of the message she was begging me to call her back so we could “get clear.” I think this means something like ‘attain closure, but also make you agree to what I want you to do.” She did agree not to attempt to contact me again.

I have known Doh for longer than anyone else in Asheville except Smiley. He is a wonderful friend with a kind, compassionate heart. While he encouraged me to take these trainings, he never once tried to pressure me. Hopefully, we can still be friends even after all this stuff I’ve posted. I did it because I had to.

I’ve known BU for about 3 weeks. I really like her, and I think she is incredibly insightful and witty. Talking to her is like being probed with a velvet razor. She encouraged me to change my enrollment from the basic session to the combo basic/advanced package, but she also never placed any pressure on me, nor did she ever imply that there was anything wrong with me if I didn’t want to go.

There are Personal Growth Programs that are worth your money, and there are ways to find them. But Hat’s pitch about The Legacy Center raised my hackles, and I still let myself get sucked in. I will use this experience to remember to ALWAYS listen to my gut and do the research first. Recognize the hard-sell for what it is: an attempt to stop you from thinking.


Responses

  1. I had a very close friend join up with the Legacy crew. We’d known each other since we were five, and even after fifteen years of friendship, he wouldn’t be friends with me any more because I wouldn’t join up. I’m glad you resisted, friend.

  2. For what it’s worth. I have to say that I am proud of you. Not for refusing to worship a head of lettuce or a giant carrot named Rama Vegila, but for once again standing up for your self; setting your boundaries and respecting them. You Go Sister Girl!

  3. I’ve been doing programs that started with est (now called Landmark) for 15 years. They helped save my marriage and have been the source of much satisfaction. For what it’s worth.

    PS Saw your blog at Blue nc.

  4. yeouch. i guess the shiva ipa’s @ dl last night sort of numbed exactly how creepy this all sounds.

    Clear!™

  5. Welcome to Ashvegas! Beware though. There are Legatrons EVERYWHERE!

    I am not one of them, although I’m married to one. And yes, it almost broke up my marriage, until he agreed to stop pressuring me to attend a session AND agreed that our relationship was more important than him keeping “secrets” about what he did every other weekend for almost a year.

    That said, I know some folks who have benefitted greatly from the program, while others have just become totally creepy. My theory is that if you’re an independent, strong thinker before the program, it’s not going to change much. If you’re not, you’re gonna drink the Kool-Aid somewhere, eventually, anyway.

    I’ve been to one guest night and one graduation, to support my spouse, but I made my boundaries clear and escaped unscathed (at the graduation, I threatened to write “NO HUGS” across my chest in black marker and flash anyone who got into my personal space).

  6. Wow!! I lay in bed at night and dream about writing kick-ass letters to people who need to hear it. I know what you mean about finding the right help. How about we get together this weekend at your free beach house, you write me a check for a menial $250 and we’ll write some life goals? :)
    Are you still going? I still don’t know if I”m insitting until ‘if jeff feels better on friday’- but would like to go to shakespeare friday and then beach sat morning if i’m free and it’s ON!>!
    p.s. the only email i have for you is sheville.

  7. Sounds like you are being really mean to someone who wanted something nice for you. If you didn’t want it, just say so. You sound like a big coward.

  8. Hi Pete (Can I call you Pete?) Nice to meetcha! If you had read any of the other posts in this blog, in the 11 year span that I’ve been keeping it, you might have noticed a pattern of craven cowardice. I am getting better in that I did say no, several times, in a way that I now see was too nice. I will not make that mistake again.

    Usually, I don’t lead off with “you’re a coward” to someone I just met. It must be all that bravery you have.

  9. Stumbled on this blog and I’m thanking my PC and your blog that I did. I had the same situation but I attended the first class. Although it was not Legacy, it was an offshoot of Lifespring. I was feeling pressured to sign up for the second one and I paid my $200 deposit. Once I came home, my bull-o-meter went off at an alarming rate. I have since cancelled and who knows if I’ll ever see my $200 again. Your blog hits it right on the money. I believe it’s a scam and a darn good one because people don’t realize they’re roped in since the Kool-Aid has been digested by then. I fully believe you should be informed before signing and if you’re getting vague answers as to what goes on in there, I suggest you think hard about attending. Do some research to make sure it is a reputable company and certified psychologists are available to assist you in the event it becomes overwhelming.

    And Peter, you can just say “No” all you want and they’ll still be sitting there pen in hand. I don’t know this blogger from Eve but I do understand exactly what she went through and then some.

  10. Thanks for your post. I was in love with someone who did not listen to his instincts and enrolled in LC. My life and my relationship became a total hell because of them and their “clarity.” I’ve lived through the pressure and the secrets and the daily phone calls and the lies that accompany this place, and I’ve found very few people who have any idea how experiences like this affect people. Thanks for your post and keep spreading the word!

  11. Hi, I found your blog after I did a search for “Legacy Center” and “cult.” A few years ago, my former therapist abused my trust and pushed me into attending the Basic session. I got a few good things out of it, but at the end, they really hit me with a hard sell to (a) do the advanced for a vastly more expensive cost, and to (b) pressure everyone else around me to go as well, and the more I saw of that, the more turned off I was by the whole thing. That, plus the fact that my therapist kept abusing our relationship to try and force it down my throat led to me finding another therapist, and vowing to never attend another Legacy thing ever again. The more I read up on them, the more creeped out I was, and now I do my best to steer people away from Legacy and from LGATs in general.

  12. The Legacy Center is a very disturbing cult and the people there such as Lori Todd are very dangerous.

    It is based on atheistic, secular, and New Age principles that are extremely dangerous. It is a cult that is engaged in mind control techniques and sleep deprivation. It espouses situational morality, New Age philosophies, and EST self development techniques that are unproven and extremely dangerous.

    The people that run it have no regard for the mental health and emotional state of the people that they coerce into attending. It is all about the MONEY. There are dozens and dozens of people on the Internet who have agonized and complained of the horrors of this place. We would venture to say that hundreds of lives have been adversely affected or destroyed by The Legacy Center. We would be willing to bet that there have been people that have either attempted or committed suicide as a result of their dangerous techniques.

    Lori Todd is very dangerous and we want her removed from the University and we want The Legacy Center shut down. NOW!
    How would this look- “dangerous cult leader is Professor at Univ No. Carolina”

    Sincerely,
    We Mean Business44

  13. I actually have no problem with atheists or secularists, although New Ageists make me giggle. And people say I embrace situational morality cause I’m gay. I just have a problem with being clubbed over the head like a helpless baby seal.

  14. Is it my imagination or is there a sort of anti-cult cult out there? Several people at UNC have received, or been forwarded, threatening emails regarding this Legacy organization and its atheistic, New Age, evil ways. The general tenor of the messages is: “Fire so-and-so or we will take more extreme measures.” For a group/person opposed to coercion, this seems a bit contradictory.

    Having been once held incommunicado by a group of Los Angeles Scientologists for several hours (where I was badgered about the importance of “getting clear,” and having once followed my libido and an attractive new “friend” into a Nichiren Shoshu group, chanting “nam yo ho, hrenge kyo” (sp?) until my back and throat were unimaginably sore, I can understand and sympathize with the misery that can come of getting involved with these groups. But I think that your approach and tone are far more constructive in the long run — learn from your experience in being pushed/sucked/suckered into something and move on. It probably won’t be the last time. Life is full of experiences that cause us to say “What on earth could I have been thinking?” We have those experiences so that we can then actually answer that question rather than just leave it as a rhetorical expression. We answer it (as you have done in your superb blog entry) and then we get on with our education/career/relationships. Joining an anti-cult cult (even a virtual one) would seem to be just another way of letting the cultists dominate us. Or so it would seem.

    I know this is a long comment, but I want to pose a question: Is it possible that many of us (I include myself here) have so lowered our thresholds with regard to whom we think of as “friends” and how soon we assign them that title, that it becomes too easy for people to insert themselves into our decisions?

  15. I just wanted to provide a link to the Advanced Bonewits’ Cult Danger Evaluation Frame (ABCDEF): http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html . (My apologies for the non-733t linkage; I’m not accustomed to blogwriting). It’s a wonderful, albeit totally nonscientific, tool for looking at organizations and predicting how scary they’re going to be. I can’t believe I’ve been in Asheville for eight years and have never heard of the Legacy Center! I’m off to knock on wood.

  16. Very insightful and well written post. Thank you…

    -cg

  17. Hi. You haven’t a clue who I am, but I came across this…

    I actually took the entire Legacy Classes about 8 years ago. I won’t go into the details of the whos, whens and whys. From a strategic view, I didn’t agree with A LOT about this company…and yes I say company. The very thought of Lori Todd makes me want to run my nails down a chalkboard even to this day… :D

    What I will say is this… the people in my group that I met and spent so much time with, about 7 months, had a profound affect on my life. For that I’m thankful! I still think of them to this day. Yes, 8 year later I have a photo, of all of us, on my desk at the children’s playground we built for the Raleigh Rescue Mission. Why? It’s a reminder. A simple reminder… Give of myself.

    So to sum up the entire Legacy experience is this… You choose your life and what’s working and not working with it! The reason why people ask, “is this all there is in life”… is because they are coming from a “what’s in it for me” attitude.

    Wanna be happy? What a different “experience”…. Volunteer. Give to the needy. Be nice. Focus on someone other than yourself for a change… Save the hundreds if not thousands of dollars and grab a paint brush and help your local Habit for Humanity. Grab an apron and head down to your local food kitchen. You will quickly learned how blessed you truly are… soon, you’ll learn the true meaning of happiness… It’s to serve others and you don’t need a very expensive class to tell you that….

    I’m glad you saved your money… I hope all the friendships weren’t lost….

    :D Thanks. CB

  18. Wow. It is amazing how negative you are to people who care about you. And how much you need to trash everyone. I am a graduate of Legacy Center and it was the best thing I have ever done in my life. I have been on a spiritual journey for a while. I have been looking for the “good news” in the world. I was very cynical growing up and then realized that life is very short and I didnt want to waste it. I was rather fortunate to be a participant in Life altering workshops at Legacy Center. At first I thought the people were too good to be true. My trust stuff was very alert.
    But after being coached along side CEOs, attorneys, artists, and searchers like me I was amazed. I actually connected with so many people I was shocked. I have become clear on my purpose and I am having a blast going after my dreams. If our planet is to survive we get to be a world community. It is too bad that people are so afraid of love and yet they want it more than anything. If there is any bias at Legacy Center it is to have your relationships work. Not the opposite.
    RP

  19. Ok, I have no problem with talking about you, your friends, your loved ones and their experiences at The Legacy Center on this post, but I will brook no ad hominem attacks, up to and including posting of personal information, unsubstantiated accusations, and idiotic misspelled diatribes. If you’re going to post a diatribe, your ass better punctuate it correctly.

    And stop shitting on pagans on my blog.

  20. Hey Pixiedyke,

    I was amazed to read that this blog post went back to 2006. Until this past year, I had heard of the Legacy Center before. Most of the information I found on it was posted at FACTNET and the Rick Ross Institute websites. I guess they have been trolling Asheville for a while now.

    First off, thanks for posting about your experience with this – recently, a friend’s spouse contacted me (I’ll stay gender neutral to be safe) about the Legacy Group. I’ve had a few years of experience with DCG (destructive control groups) and LGATs, but I hadn’t known that we had one operating in our own backyard.

    In short, we were able to talk the spouse out of it, but not by being harsh, but by just letting the person fill in their own pieces. Part of what makes the Legacy folk so effective is that they do tell people that ‘others won’t understand.’ To circumvent that notion, we stayed supportive, but did not let the person who was about to attend know we (as a group of friends) had talked about the seminars before hand.

    Staying open, non-judgmental, while still providing information about LGATs was crucial – so when the spouse got back from the LC near Raleigh, they were already questioning the program.

    In short, they felt pretty stupid for letting their friends fork over $400 for this weekend seminar, but they understood why it happened to them.

    A poster above called them Legatrons and I was curious to know if anyone else in Asheville has had problems with this group.

  21. I recently completed the Basic Course at Legacy Center and went through two (2) days of the Advanced before foregoing the rest of it.

    Although the experience I had in both courses did have some beneficial applications, the Advanced has some content that I found potentially more harmful than beneficial. In adhering to confidentiality, I am constrained from going into specific details; however, I would encourage anyone and everyone to do research on Legacy Center BEFORE committing to taking any of their workshops.

    What you will find might surprise or even shock you. There is nothing original about the methodology them employ. One resource to check out is an excerpt from “The Politics of Transformation” by Dr. Philip Cushman, an expert in Behavioral Modification and Endoctrination, particularly the method known as “Large Group Awareness Training” or “LGAT.”

    There is an abundance of independent source material on-line on Legacy and related topics through Google and other research venues. A word to the wise: Look before you leap!

  22. Just wondering if anyone is still reading this thread. I am a recent Legacy Center survivor. I made it through the Basic and Advanced, and finally dropped out during the Leadership Program when I found myself being pressured to recruit my friends. It was one of the most regrettable experiences of my life. The money I wasted ($2500) aside, I came out of the program feeling violated, duped, and manipulated.
    I’ve had a hard time moving on from this experience, and I’ve searched the web looking for any information or discussions about this group. I noticed there haven’t been any recent postings about the Legacy Center on Factnet, and was wondering if anyone knows of a current discussion thread that exists somewhere.

    thanks – swanson

  23. If you’ve googled, that’s all I would know either. I think people who come out of it like you feel embarrassed and harassed, and therefore don’t reach out online.

  24. Hi Swanson
    I am calling the Legatrons in the meantime the Lega-Fu$$.
    And I actually had a “telephone guest event” with one of them – last night.
    It is interesting to see the date of your post. About that time I stumbled on this site and other websites re “Legacy Center” and “Cult” as well, since a very good friend of mine – I have known him quite well for almost 10 years – got involved with them end of February of this year. Thinking originally – and naively – that these classes are kind of management type self-improvement workshops à la Carnegie or similar, I quickly noticed though radical changes in him, in particular during the Advanced course. Currently he is in the Leadership program. He had become extremely secretive and also quite defensive and aggressive, whenever I asked questions – whether I asked harmless ones (“How was the class”?) or became critical of the program per se (which I did a lot). I even read Margaret Singers’s book “Cults in our Midst” and sent him a copy to please at least read the parts about LGATs (Large Group Awareness Trainings). To no avail. There was all of a sudden a wall between us that I simply could not break down. The only opinions that counted were the ones from his Lega-Fu$$ buddies. Numerous times there were suggestions made for me to attend guest events or at least talk to other cult members (I live in another State) – and yes I agree completely with the term “money cult” that another poster used.
    After 2 months of screaming fits and drifting further and further apart, I nonetheless finally agreed to have an open mind and to be honest and do one of the “telephone guest events.” And I was. But I also had questions, since I hardly got info from him, but had to get it off the Internet.
    Was on the phone about 50 minutes. Asked, among others, very specific questions about the precise difference between Lifespring and Legacy, since its founders Lori Todd and Rob Katz were instrumental in Lifespring before that cult went bust due to litigations. About the sleep deprivation during those workshops – which evidently raised a flag. That clearly was a No-No term. About any trained professionals being there when these poor people are exposing themselves emotionally in front of strangers, and some simply break down. And why on earth are they doing these daily calls during the different workshops? Control? Like mind control? Like brainwashing? Etc., etc., etc.
    No clear answer. Just wishy-washy. Amateurs? Or not?
    I was not a malleable “subject” that’s for sure. After this “telephone guest event” I called him and told him about what transpired.
    I am sure, no contact anymore with him. He is just gone into his little world. It’s much safer. Who wants criticism? I lost a dear, dear friend. And I am quite saddened about it. But there is nothing I can do anymore. “They” took over.
    But I am also quite mad about it.
    Hitler would have loved the Lega-Fu$$. And I am allowed to say that because I am German.

  25. Hey Hufnagel,

    It was good to hear a fresh voice out there on the subject of the Legacy Center. I’m very sorry for your friend. Having had a similar experience myself, where I was putting their teachings ahead of my own ‘gut feeling’ (and alienating my friends in the process), I know how terribly headstrong and misguided and stubborn one can become after going through the program. I ‘escaped’ soon after the Leadership Program had begun, but it took several months before I was able to fully process what had actually been done to me.

    The folks at the Legacy Center (Lori Todd and Rob Katz, and all the loyal volunteers) have a very clever money-making scheme. I had always considered myself a fairly intelligent woman – I had always heard stories about others getting sucked into cults, but thought I was way too smart for that to ever happen to me. But the way they recruit new members is by having existing members call up all their friends and family, people with whom they have spent years building trust and relationships, and pressure them – and I mean PRESSURE – until they give up their credit card number, and sign up.

    I never would have signed up on my own; a ‘personal-effectiveness training program’ was not something that ever interested me. But I started dating a man who had done this program a few years back, and less than a week into our relationship was when he first brought up the Legacy Center. I assumed it to be similar to Carnegie as well, but I really wasn’t interested. He continued bringing up the subject, saying how it would ‘change my life’, and how it would enable me to have a ‘life of no regrets.’ Looking back now, I regret that I wasn’t more skeptical. I wish I had sought advice from other friends, and gone online and read the pages and pages other people have written about the Legacy Center. Had I known then what it was really about, I wouldn’t have gone near the program.

    It’s clever because the first program (the Basic) starts out slowly, and accommodates people’s natural skepticism, all the while trying to ingrain in people to ‘trust the process. Don’t ask why we do things a certain way. We do it this way because it works. Trust the process.’ In the first week there is none of the sleep deprivation or intense emotional situations that come about in the Advanced. So I emerged from the first program feeling fairly good about it. I had had one moment where my gut was telling me to get out, but after hours of consultations with other members I successfully buried my gut feeling and my skepticism about the program.

    When the Advanced started there were a number of things that would have raised red flags for me, but because I was ‘trusting the process’ and trusting the man I was dating, I went along with it. But at some point it was like being on a train that was slowly moving faster and faster. The program slowly builds momentum, and things came at me so quickly (plus I was tired from lack of sleep), that my instinctual skepticism was impaired. I began wrestling with my own consciousness, my own sense of identity. On the one side was the Legacy Center, which claims to stand for a ‘transformed world’, that wants peace and harmony and love in the world. And on the other side was my own sense of right, my own feelings, which was telling me something was terribly wrong. It was as if Jesus had just preached to me the Sermon on the Mount, and then raped me, telling me this was how to spread love in the world. I felt violated and manipulated and betrayed.

    I’m still angry about my experience, and I’ve been wanting to do something about it. There are hundreds of people who have been hurt by this program, but I’m afraid most are too embarrassed about being scammed to do anything about it. It seems like a couple years ago there was a movement – even talk of a law suit- to try to shut down the Legacy Center. If anyone has any information about anything current I would greatly appreciate it.

  26. I was just 18 when a close friend and his family pulled me into Legacy… I was at my first semester at UNC, and until then had everything going for me, friends, smarts, great ethic. After Legacy, I was a new person… And it was a far shade of who I was before. Like being turned into a zombie. Since then, I have been in and out of hospitals for mania and depression, have lost all my friends and hope for a future, and have been drinking heavily pretty much every day for the last four years. I wish I could have sued them then, but now I just hope and pray every moment of my life that somebody shuts them down or sues the crap out of them. They took my entire life

  27. Hey eliminatedego,

    My heart goes out to you. It infuriates me every time I hear a story like yours. And I know there are dozens more like you who have had similar experiences.

    This is what I think is so dangerous about the Legacy Center. Their program works like a cookie cutter. No matter what it is you’re dealing with, no matter what trauma you may have faced in your past, you bring all of it up in their program. It’s the same approach with every person, whether you were raped by your father or simply didn’t get the ice cream flavor you wanted as a child. When you’re in the program it all comes up, all the pain and anger and despair. And there isn’t a single trained professional in the room to help you cope with this profound and unnaturally intense release of emotions. There are only volunteers in the room – people who have been brainwashed by this cult (and yes, despite their claims to the contrary, it IS a cult). And these people take advantage of your vulnerable state to try to brainwash you into adopting their belief system. When I think back to when I was in that state, how much of myself I revealed to them, it makes me sick to my stomach.

    So, yes, it is a dangerous program, and every week a new batch of unsuspecting victims gets duped out of their money, and duped out of their peace of mind, simply because they have a friend or family member they trust who recruited them.

    So, what to do about it? I’m still thinking. If enough people came forward, the attorney general would be forced to investigate. Similar programs, such as Lifespring, have been sued for doing the same thing that the Legacy Center does. So it has been done, and can be done again.

    If there’s a lawyer out there reading this thread, would love to hear your opinion.

  28. Our marriage counselor encouraged us to take legacy basic and advanced, to go ahead and sign up for both. I thought we were signing up for a 5-day class in basic — turned out I had to “commit” to 7 days including an individual session on Monday and something or other on Tuesday. So I walked from the registration, and waited around, reading a couple of books in parking lots until 12:20 AM when husband finally called to pick him up.

    I can’t say that he was pleasant to me at that time — Thursday early AM. He asked if I’d noticed a particular man who was in the waiting area — and I said I thought I wasn’t supposed to know anything about the people or the class, since I wasn’t in it. He snapped that I just wasn’t interested in what he did.

    He’s already asked if I’ll consider taking the course at a later time. I hope he’s not hurt as others have been — but when I asked him if he felt in any way threatened, he said he got through basic training and there wasn’t anything these folks could do to compare to that. But it’s been over 35 years ago — and a long time since he’s mentioned basic training. There’s never been anything to make me think it was a high point in his life, or a wonderful, transformative event!

    I noticed that a recent poster said there’s no sleep deprivation in basic — but from 5:30 PM to 12:20 AM is a mighty big chunk of Wednesday night! And working past midnight 5 days in a row does seem to put a strain on a person.

    Glad to find your blog with even handed discussion, recent experience. I can’t say I’m not concerned about his staying in the class, or how he will view my not twisting my work schedule ever further to be in it..

    Rest well, and hope for the best. I’d appreciate any information others can share about after-basic.

    rosetech

  29. Hi everybody.
    I posted last on April 30. In the meantime, I had an appointment with Steven Hassan.
    Check out
    http://www.freedomofmind.com/
    And also specifically about the L-Fucks
    http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/6/12845.html
    After Margaret Singer he is the expert on mind control here in the US. Because that is exactly what is going on. He told me a lot about the mind control.
    Hey, they are monitoring this web site. And FactNet. They shut down other sites.
    So, you fucking Legacy People. If you read this –and of which I am sure you do – hi Lori and Rob,would just luv to meet ya…..
    You little fuckheads with your little retreat. You are evidently making a lot of money, while destroying people. People that are not even in your fucking little program.
    And because Daniel always told me that “they” – meaning us- are always anonymous. The people that are posting.
    Well, I am not hiding.
    My name is Silke Hufnagel. I live in Evergreen, CO and my number is 303-674-3777. I am not posting anomously (sp?).
    Do any of you, by the way, know what a “cradle angle” is? Daniel never answered and just exploded when I asked.
    And Lori and Todd – You fucking little shits not only fucked up a relationship between a male and a female. You actually fucked up a friendship of 10 years. And I hope you burn in hell.
    And I am mad.
    Silke

  30. I actually went through the freedom of mind link, and found a great analogy: the emperor’s new clothes. It works for me. See, it wasn’t that legacy brought any deep-rooted problems to the surface, I had had a fairly happy childhood in middle class. If that had been the case it still would be their faults, for bringing all that to the surface like overflowing a full toilet! Seriously, though I was still basically an adolescent when I took the courses. I hadn’t even gotten to experience my 18th year of life.

    When I came out, it was like I was naked – no clothes. I thought about it over the last few days and realized a few things that were important. One, my conversation changed… All the dynamics, jokes, ways and methods of reacting with other human beings disappeared and was left blank, or with legacy jib-jab. “hey, how are you!” … “I feel honestly like today will be another positive day” where what used to be could have been “greaaat how bout you”.

    There were a lot of surface changes that I hadn’t thought about… Like how I don’t really laugh anymore since Legacy. Or bump shoulders or put my hand on other people. There are all sorts of value normalizations that go on before any thought or action. Having lost all my confidence, I lost my previous skills of public speaking. I also lost the ability to talk to women. And, with this constant second-guessing myself I stopped keeping in touch with all my friends and family — you dunno what to say when every sentence is steeped with personal affects and hidden nuances. Not to mention how loud everything has been since then.

  31. May I remind everyone that racism, antisemitism, anti paganism, homophobia, assholery, and spam are not tolerated on my blog. If you have a beef, tell your fucking story, coward.

  32. occasionally i let myself look back on my legacy center experience. i’m not sure if i can put into words my overwhelming distaste for the organization, the people, and complete and utter bullshit they attempt to make you believe, but here goes…

    met a pretty girl. fell for pretty girl. made plans to move to boston with said pretty girl, who then started talking about the amazing program she’d been through at the legacy center. at the time i had a fantastic job in charlotte, was not in debt, and was feeling mostly good. being with her felt like the missing piece. but i politely said that while it was obviously a wonderful thing for her, it just didn’t sound like MY kind of “thing.”

    thus the pestering and manipulation began. “don’t you want to resolve things with your family?” no, no so much. “don’t you want more out of life?” of course i do, but not if it costs $700 and i can’t eat it, drive it, put strings on it and play it or… you know what i mean. but, of course- i gave in with the “i don’t want us to make this move without both of us ‘getting clear’ about who we are- this will make us stronger and more prepared… blah X 3…”

    so, i did it. and no, didn’t tell my friends because somewhere, deep down, i knew it was nuts. boom- there goes the credit card number. boom- there goes 4 days of work. boom- there goes my sanity. i told my friends we were going on a recon mission to boston to check out apartments.

    in the midst of our early dating rituals, i would drive out to see her when she was finishing up one of the final courses. which meant i would sit in a hotel room for 12 hours, or drive around, until finally she would arrive frazzled and exhausted and bleary eyed, or manic beyond belief- and i STILL wasn’t smart enough to see how ridiculous and unhealthy the whole deal was.

    i get to the center. it’s creepy. people are asking each other “what are you creating in your life today, bob?” i wanted to hear someone say “well george, in about 30 minutes i’ll be creating a ham sandwich…” but no. it was “i’m creating abundance and joy, george. how ’bout you?”

    weird.

    but you know what? i gave in. did the basic course. spent all that money on hotel rooms (and food, and gas, and clothes, and the little props they make you bring to the classes…) and didn’t think about the consequences of doling out every dime you have just months before you move across the country. because i was too wrung out, bleary eyed, manic and screwy by the end of the day that i couldn’t even think.

    but at times, i would look around and do the math. all these people- a huge room full of people- plopped down hundreds of dollars. all the “employees” were “volunteers.” no one anywhere was a trained professional in mental health. just lori and rick and the “trainer,” who seemed like a nice enough guy. and all three of them are putting this roomful of people through an emotional meatgrinder for 8 hours, then sending them out for a lunch break.

    the closest place to eat was some outlet mall just down the road. and in this outlet mall’s food court, little tables of “teams” would meet up and share their feeling and notes and whatnot about what had happened so far in the day. and more often than not, from across the court, i would hear someone scream and break into tears, freaking out and completely unable to process and deal with the mental and emotional scabs and scars that these legacy jokers picked and scraped at until they started bleeding again. and none of us knew what to do.

    this is getting a bit long, so i’ll sum up. i did the basic. i was coerced into doing the advanced, which without a doubt fucked me up beyond belief. i spent money that i didn’t have. started talking and using phrases that i didn’t believe. the legacy center will have you believe that anyone in your circle of friends that doesn’t buy into their bullshit is caught in something they call “the drift.” which, in hindsight, is “sanity.” because these people are insane, greedy, evil… indeed.

    when i would attend their little recruiting sessions, i remember lori giving the same speech, with the same inflections, coming to tears on the same perfectly rehearsed line every single time. bad stuff.

    soooo… boo to the legacy center and all that it is. i regret not only the money that i lost, but the hours of my life that were wasted, and the continuing wreckage i carry around even now, 6 years after the experience.

    and the relationship with the pretty girl didn’t work out, either.

  33. sorry for any grammatical errors and such. and punctuation. and the fact that i hate capitalizing most anything.

  34. That was great, Cooper, grammatical errors and all. Thank you.

  35. The cells in my body are curdling after reading Cooper’s account. Word for word it described exactly what I went through (and am still recovering from) with the Legacy Center two years ago – failed relationship and all. Like Cooper, I was in a really good place in life when I met a man who seemed like the ‘missing piece’ in my life. Less than a week into our relationship he began talking about the Legacy Center. I thought he was just really interested in me and my happiness, but after going through the program myself I realized he was using methods on me to recruit me that he had learned in the program – and if I wanted to continue with the Legacy Center I had to use the same coercive methods on all my friends and family to get them to join. That’s when I finally saw the light, and realized how I was being brain-washed, manipulated, violated, betrayed, duped, and cheated out of over $2500.

    When I quit the program, my boyfriend tried to convince me I was giving up on myself, that I was running away from a breakthrough. I went from being in a good place in life and being emotionally stable to suffering severe bouts of depression. I feel like I have vomit in my soul, and even after two years that ugly feeling is still with me.

    The worst part is that what the Legacy Center claims to stand for – transforming the world, making a shift in the collective consciousness of people, loving everyone, etc. – is something I used to really want to make a part of me. Now whenever I hear phrases that parallel the jargon of this group, I have ‘flashbacks’ and I feel sick to my stomach. I used to be an optimist, and really thought love could change the world. Now I’m like a dog that’s been kicked too many times, and I ‘bite’ anyone who tries to show me love.

    I naively thought groups like this didn’t exist anymore, or couldn’t legally exist. But then I remember when I first arrived at the Legacy Center I had to sign a huge stack of legal waivers, and signed all my rights away. But I’m left hoping there will someday be a movement to try to expose this group and shut them down. But I can only dream.


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